Ben Bailey
 Veteran Member Posts:2561
 | | 18 Sep 2007 09:48 AM |
| On top of all the other stuff, bad luck, and robbery that we have dealt with in the past 6 months... ...this morning started normal. But when I pulled off the freeway on my way to work I noticed a little buzzing sound coming from the transmission tunnel, then a slight hissing sound. One mile later, while coasting into a turn in 2nd gear, the truck starts jerking back and forth and loosing power even though the engine was still at 1500 rpm and still responded when I put the pedal down. After another mile at 25-35 mph, I start to hear the buzzing, hissing, and then what sounds like fingernails on a chalkboard, and what could be described as that sound you hear when you get a branch wrapped around your drive shaft and it whack whack whacks the transmission tunnel as you drive... then it went away for a mile or two, then back, then gone...
...The noises seemed to get a bit louder, but the next thing was the jerking came back, then the feeling that I was driving into a powerful headwind, sort of like when you take off with the hand brake still engaged.
By the time I had driven the 20 miles to drop my daughter off at my parents' house, then over to work, I was embarrassed by the sound my truck was making going down the road, people were looking at me and holding their hears as I went by. The driving, shifting and jerking started getting worse, and I ended up coasting in N into the school parking lot and backing into the furthest spot I could find................
No smoke, no extra heat, no bad smell. However, after I parked I took a look around for a minute or two and only then did I start to smell transmission fluid -- not like burning, but kind of like you would expect if there was a puddle of it on the ground -- no leaks, nothing abnormal to see.
 This all happened pretty much without warning, all within the course of one drive and over a total of only 25 miles. I had not noticed any shifting or noise or other issues with the transmission. I just changed the filter and fluid. I have not had a chance to do anything but look under the truck to see if there was anything amiss. I do not believe I will make it home. | | |
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Roger Carr
 Advanced Member Posts:828
 | | 18 Sep 2007 10:12 AM |
| Ouch, I don't know enough about automatice to be much help. Maybe a bad torque converter? | | | |
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Nevak Risew
 Veteran Member Posts:1200
 | | 18 Sep 2007 10:19 AM |
| That doesn't sound good at all. I'm not even sure I have any advice. Check the fluid level, and see if it's low or too full. Also smell to see if it's burnt.
My mechanic warned me some years ago about servicing high mileage ZFs, and said it may cause issues, depending on how regularly it has been serviced in the past. He seemed to suggest if it has been regular and kept clean it will probably be good for it, but if it has been a long time/lot of miles between services then it could loosen up crud that could move around and lodge in one of the many little passage ways and check valves. I sure hope that isn't what happened. Kevan | | | |
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Ben Bailey
 Veteran Member Posts:2561
 | | 18 Sep 2007 11:33 AM |
| I believe this car was serviced regularly, my mechanic is glad I own it now so that the previous owner won't bring it in when a bolt is loose, or when they simply need an oil change.
What about pinion flange bearings? Or if my front TrueTrac is locking up I might get these noises coming up the drivetrain and I might be getting the feeling of strange shifting and loss of power. Loss of power is a bit of a bad way to say it, it really feels more like I suddenly hit a major headwind or like someone has pulled my parking brake while I'm driving.
I always imagined a transmission coming apart making grinding sounds and that you would notice the burning smell, etc... | | | |
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Ben Bailey
 Veteran Member Posts:2561
 | | 18 Sep 2007 12:00 PM |
| I just checked the fluid in the transmission, normal, clean. I also decided that it must not be the torque converter because if I am sitting still in D it makes no noise. I am leaning toward an issue with a differential, or bearing that is beginning to melt down and I hope that pulling one of the prop shafts might clear up the issue so that I can narrow it down. I will start by checking the oil in the front diff (trutrac). Then I will assume it is the pinion flange bearing -- but I'm not sure how to test that?? Pull the front off the ground and try to spin it?
At this point, unless it is the transfer case I can't quite believe it is the transmission, and I don't think it is the torque converter. Should I try shifting the transfer case too? | | | |
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Nevak Risew
 Veteran Member Posts:1200
 | | 18 Sep 2007 12:03 PM |
| I don't know... it could be that it's slipping. Does it rev higher but not feel like it's going anywhere? If that's it it could be as simple as a fluid level issue. Check the fluid level first with engine idling and in Park or Neutral (it says which one on the dip stick I think). I had a trans go out once (not a rover) and it just lost reverse and and then soon wouldn't go anywhere. I'm no trans expert by any means--and I tend to be optimistic, so I'd start with the fluid level since you were just in there... fingers crossed. ZF's are very robust transmissions.
That's a good sign about the PO being a service-a-holic. check the fluid and post back. | | | |
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Nevak Risew
 Veteran Member Posts:1200
 | | 18 Sep 2007 12:06 PM |
| uggh. I was typing while you were posting. I was hoping it was just low on fluid. I suppose pulling the front shaft might help narrow it down. Funny that it is doing this soon after servicing. I tend to think it might be related, but then it could be a coincidence. I dunno... where's Danno when ya need him! Dan knows broken stuff  | | | |
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Ben Bailey
 Veteran Member Posts:2561
 | | 18 Sep 2007 12:23 PM |
| Ya, fluid is fine and smells warmish/sweet, good color. Not a burnt smell.
I know what you mean about the touch-it-it-breaks issues. It seems like I'm always asking myself that question, "...will this just make it worse?"
My plan now is to tow it home. Put it up on jacks to test the diffs and the ebrake (someone said they had an ebrake come apart on them and cause some of the same issues -- and for some reason, that was the first thing I looked at when the jerking motion first happened this morning) I plan on pulling the front prop shaft. The way it was acting, I bet I will be able to tell if that makes the issue go away or not, I should know pretty quickly. | | | |
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Tony Sims
 Veteran Member Posts:1231
 | | 18 Sep 2007 12:57 PM |
| I wonder if one of the bolts that hold the torque converter fell out? It could make all the noises you describe -- the whining and scraping sounds while it's lodged and rubbing, the whack sound when it gets loose and gets bounced around. If could be causing the TC to jam a little if it gets wedged between the TC and the bell housing, causing the bucking sensation, and if it's wedged in somewhere and rubbing on the TC it could basically act like the parking brake. It would also create heat from friction, which would amplify the smell of trans fluid.
That's a load of conjecture, but it is possible.
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Todd Eliason
 Veteran Member Posts:3515
 | | 18 Sep 2007 01:57 PM |
| Or you could take it to Doug and let him figure it out. Possibly saving you a lot of time and frustration. | | | |
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Dan Cronin
 Veteran Member Posts:2844
 | | 18 Sep 2007 02:22 PM |
| I second that Ben. Quit screwing around and let a professional have a go at it. You'll be MILES of stress-free-ness ahead. | | | |
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Ben Bailey
 Veteran Member Posts:2561
 | | 18 Sep 2007 02:51 PM |
| $$$ -- I've gone into debt in the past 6 months, something I've avoided for the past 8 years, and it's all because of broken Rovers and people stealing things from me and causing lots of damage doing so. | | | |
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Nevak Risew
 Veteran Member Posts:1200
 | | 18 Sep 2007 02:51 PM |
| You guys, if Ben takes it to Doug we won't have nearly as much to pontificate about.... OK. Doug is probably a good option. Sorry, Ben. Wish we could be of more help.
I bet Todd would drive if you wanted to try something like this:
Repairs on the road 1995 Darwin Awards nominee
James Burns, 34, of Alamo, Mich., was killed in March as he was trying to repair what police described as a "farm-type truck." Burns got a friend to drive the truck on a highway while Burns hung underneath so that he could ascertain the source of a troubling noise. Burns' clothes caught on something, however, and the other man found Burns "wrapped in the drive shaft." | | | |
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Ben Bailey
 Veteran Member Posts:2561
 | | 18 Sep 2007 03:22 PM |
| ...actually, I thought of having my brother lie down in the road while I... never mind. | | | |
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Andy Berglund Tacoma, WA
 Veteran Member Posts:3453
 | | 18 Sep 2007 05:23 PM |
| well, i hope it isn't your trans either. i had mine go out and it's a pain to service. i agree with the others about taking it to doug but i also hear where you're coming from. i just finished crushing my self-esteem "servicing" my rover. lame.
anyhoo, on the ZFs reverse and D3 are mechanical. if those gears work ok but doesn't work in others, you could have internal issues with the trans. however, it sounds like drive itself works fine. i know you haven't really had a chance to check on it but when scott's t-case mounts failed, his drive shafts were on his crossmembers. could be the problem (along with input/output seal failure). we were going slow so we didn't hear any of the other sounds you mentioned but there was a definate thunk that would disappear. it would disappear because when the truck changed its weigh distribution in a certain way, the broken mount would unload and the driveshaft would stop rubbing.
it appears that you linked pics but i can't seem them. good luck man.
andy | | | |
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Scott Williams
 Advanced Member Posts:880
 | | 18 Sep 2007 05:48 PM |
| "This all happened pretty much without warning, all within the course of one drive and over a total of only 25 miles. I had not noticed any shifting or noise or other issues with the transmission. I just changed the filter and fluid. I have not had a chance to do anything but look under the truck to see if there was anything amiss. I do not believe I will make it home." Firstly, I cannot stress this first piece of advice enough to everyone on this board. Don't touch the damn pickup screen!!!!!  It is VERY easy to twist an o-ring while installing and thus aerating the tranny fluid ultimately leading to bad things happening. IT IS NOT A FILTER IT DOES NOT REQUIRE SERVICING. It will save you time and money to leave it alone and just keep up on 30k mile fluid changes. Trust me.  Ben, The sound you are describing sounds like bearings taking a poo in the transfer case. Ask me how I know that.  Anyway. It is time to go to Ship, save your sanity and let him figure it out. It will ultimately save you money as well, your time is valuable after all. I don't think many DIY'ers think about that one until more money has been spent than is necessary. Vehicles are at a level of complication that puts them out of the reach of most DIY'ers now. This is especially true of our beloved rovers.  Save money where you can but know your limits and don't hesitate to call someone who knows there way around them professionally. Keep is informed Ben. Scott | | | |
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Ben Bailey
 Veteran Member Posts:2561
 | | 18 Sep 2007 07:04 PM |
| I sat down to update everyone on the little tests I ran on the truck before having it towed to my house, I think it is bearings in the transfer case or something --- and Scott agrees!!!!! Whooo Hooo!
Anyway, that's just my hunch based on the fact that I do not believe the transmission went out -- I've been in a truck when the tranny goes, it's obvious. This was different, now that I think about it.
Second, I drove around the parking lot in different configurations. Hi/Lo/Locked/Unlocked. They all work, and the car shifted and acted normally in all four gears in low range, at low speeds the driving characteristics are normal, but you get the bad sounds.
However, some things stood out to me: I get a clanking and swishing sound when driving in Lo. I get just the swishing sound when in Hi. I can make most of the sound go away when shifting into neutral while in Hi, it sounds exactly the same in N/Lo as in D/Lo. I don't think it is a diff flange bearing because I would probably have trouble pushing the truck in N on level ground -- it is easy to move by hand. Anyway, I'm just guessing that it is the bearings in the transfer case, but I think that I'm making a good guess when I say that it is coming from the transfer case in some way shape or form.
EDITED: I think I want to take it to Doug, but I would like to try to pinpoint the problem and maybe do an hour or two of work on it myself first. In other words, I want to know exactly what needs to be done, and I am confident enough to do most of the work myself. But if it is something that needs to be rebuilt -- NO. Something that needs to be replaced -- Maybe.
If you know Doug, he is the type of person who appreciates it when I can give him something to do that is worth his time -- if I could do it myself, he would probably actually prefer it that way. | | | |
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Tony Sims
 Veteran Member Posts:1231
 | | 19 Sep 2007 01:10 PM |
| Well, you could always pull the transfer case and save yourself the R&R labor cost.
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Ben Bailey
 Veteran Member Posts:2561
 | | 19 Sep 2007 08:02 PM |
| That's what I was thinking, I've actually done some work on my own car in Doug's shop, he's cool like that. Actually, I think all Rover mechanics are cool like that...
Anyway, I'm 99% sure I know what it is now.
I went out to start the car just to get the fluids up in the engine -- I don't like to let it sit -- and to disconnect the second battery. When I started it, just letting it sit in the driveway, I could hear the noise, a sort of rattle/clonk/plastic/metal sound, it goes up and down with the RPM's. I thought -- oh no, now my cats too!? But then I realized that it was basically the same sound I had heard before. So I crawled under and sure enough I could pinpoint it almost exactly to the bell housing. So I believe I have something wrong with the torque converter.
What am I in for? DIY? Used? New? How long? Take it to the pro? | | | |
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Craig Miller Posts:11799
 | | 19 Sep 2007 09:37 PM |
| Ben,
Take it to Ship, have him diagnose it so you know for sure. Then once you know you can decide what, if anything, you want to do yourself. He's not going to charge you to diagnose it so you won't be losing any money.
Right now you don't know. Don't talk yourself into thinking you do know if you don't know. Last time you did this, you did a bunch of work only to find out it didn't help.
Craig
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