Craig Miller
Posts:11799
 | | 14 Jan 2008 02:41 PM |
| I've been doing some reading on converting a gas engine to run on 85% ethanol (E-85). On one of the sites I read that ethanol is fairly corrosive to aluminum. http://www.ethanolmt.org/switch.html Rovers have aluminum blocks, but are sleeved with steel. Anyone ever seen a Rover converted to run on Ethanol, or know any more about doing this? Craig | | |
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Benny Benson
Veteran Member
Posts:1681
| | 14 Jan 2008 06:25 PM |
| I don't think there is much worry about the aluminium in the engine block. I think the main concern is the fuel lines(rubber) My wife's car is designed for e85 and has an all aluminium block. just has a plastic fuel tank and special lines. | | | |
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Craig Miller
Posts:11799
| | 14 Jan 2008 06:27 PM |
| Hmmm... that's interesting. Too bad there are so few places in the NW selling E85.
C
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Andy Berglund
Tacoma, WA
Veteran Member
Posts:3453
| | 14 Jan 2008 07:06 PM |
| E85 as it stands now is a poor excuse for an alternative biofuel. you should know that craig. as benny said most of the issues with compatibility come from the hoses corroding from the increased alcohol content of ethanol.
most E85 is made from corn here in the US and it isn't that efficient of a conversion in terms of energy per bushel of corn. if it weren't for gov't subsidies for corn growers, corn based E85 would/should cost more than gasoline. it's a pretty poor crop and side dish, too. using sugar cane like brazil is a better idea. oh, and one of the reasons that there is not much in the way of E85 here is because it doesn't transport well. which is another reason why is sux.
i'm sure i misremembered some facts here and there. hopefully peter will be able to set me straight on this topic.
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Craig Miller
Posts:11799
| | 14 Jan 2008 09:49 PM |
| Andy,
Sure it has its downside, but the big upside is reduced tailpipe emissions. And that, not economics is what this is about. It is really the only simple choice for people with petrol engines. A couple of points that are missed by the E85 critics are that:
1. We have also paid farmers to not grow crops for a long time. I'd rather pay them the same money to generate something that we can use.
2. If the goal is reduced tailpipe emissions, this is an improvement over the dino-petrol that is in my tank now and the engine conversion is cheap, easy, and allows one to continue to run petrol when they want (flex-fuel conversion).
I'm a fan of bio-diesel, but right now I have a relatively new Land Rover 4.6l V8 in my truck. This and an LPG conversion are really the only options... and LPG is a pretty costly conversion.
Anyway, I'm investigating how to get into a diesel rig. This was more of an excercise in intellectual curiosity than anything. Before I go through the hassle of buying/building up a new rig I wanted to see what options were available for my current truck since it is in such great shape and is already built up.
Craig
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Paul Wilhelm
Basic Member
Posts:302
| | 14 Jan 2008 10:37 PM |
| I'm more familiar with biodiesel but I think ethanol uses some of the same catalysts. It's probably not the ethanol but the leftover oxides from the conversion process that will corrode the aluminum. That's one thing you really have to watch out for in making BD. Heck, it will get iron pipe after a while. Aluminum turns to salt fast with those impurities. I would look at running E85 but I haven't seen it around much. Being an organic compound too, rubber will turn to goo after soaking in Biofuels. Especially with heat and pressure. I understand that most all vehicles since 1985 have synthetic fuel lines instead of rubber. Does E85 break that down? BD is OK with it. | | | |
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Paul Wilhelm
Basic Member
Posts:302
| | 14 Jan 2008 10:37 PM |
| I'm more familiar with biodiesel but I think ethanol uses some of the same catalysts. It's probably not the ethanol but the leftover oxides from the conversion process that will corrode the aluminum. That's one thing you really have to watch out for in making BD. Heck, it will get iron pipe after a while. Aluminum turns to salt fast with those impurities. I would look at running E85 but I haven't seen it around much. Being an organic compound too, rubber will turn to goo after soaking in Biofuels. Especially with heat and pressure. I understand that most all vehicles since 1985 have synthetic fuel lines instead of rubber. Does E85 break that down? BD is OK with it. | | | |
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Craig Miller
Posts:11799
| | 14 Jan 2008 10:52 PM |
| Paul,
Check the link in my first post in this thread. It covers most of the concerns.
Craig
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Andy Berglund
Tacoma, WA
Veteran Member
Posts:3453
| | 16 Jan 2008 11:44 AM |
| i had this big old reply written out and my phone ate it. anyhoo, basically i was going to say that the cradle to grave costs for a gallon of corn based E85 (in terms of petroleum) is quite high. it is an expensive/intensive crop to grow. i know that we've been subsidizing our farmers for some time but bad practice shouldn't be the basis for new policy. E85 is the easiest alternative fuel solution but it certainly isn't the best. non-corn based ethanols would be sweet. using food products as fuel might have additional consequences that we aren't ready to face, either..
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Craig Miller
Posts:11799
| | 16 Jan 2008 11:53 AM |
| Is the cradle to grave cost of a gallon of E85 higher than the cradle to grave cost of a gallon of gas (in terms of petroleum)? | | | |
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Andy Berglund
Tacoma, WA
Veteran Member
Posts:3453
| | 16 Jan 2008 11:58 AM |
| as far as i know yes and it isn't much cleaner.
cars now (even our rovers) are fairly clean and don't contribute to our air pollution as much as people would like to think. their impact environmentally is much greater in terms of fuel consumption. cars don't need to be cleaner, planes, trains, and boats do. cars do need to be more fuel efficient though because in those terms they bring teh sux.
andy | | | |
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Craig Miller
Posts:11799
| | 16 Jan 2008 12:05 PM |
| Interesting. I have different information than you do. Pollution per occupant is actually really low in planes. I'm not sure about trains and boats. For that matter motorcycles are also very bad polluters.
Fuel consumption doesn't really bother me. When it runs out, it runs out... that's fine we can adapt as a society. I am concerned with tailpipe emissions as I believe that is causing a major change that needs to be corrected now.
C
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Andy Berglund
Tacoma, WA
Veteran Member
Posts:3453
| | 16 Jan 2008 12:15 PM |
| meh. i think tailpipe emissions are bad too but i don't think that automotive tailpipe emissions are our greatest problem. i think that the oil supply is of greater concern not only for our transportation needs but for everything else. as long as people think that we can live in a petro (or petro-syn) based world i don't think that things are going to get better. there needs to be a paradigm shift before we run out of oil.
as for the E85 thing, i could be wrong. it isn't that corn based ethanol is bad, it's that it isn't as good as some would have you believe. like it says in its name, it is an alternative, not a solution. just like those stupid hybrid cars. ack! | | | |
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Nevak Risew
Veteran Member
Posts:1200
| | 16 Jan 2008 12:31 PM |
| I'll wait until they put out a rover engine that uses compressed air  Dust me off when it happens! http://www.theaircar.com/ | | | |
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Tony Sims
Veteran Member
Posts:1231
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Andy Berglund
Tacoma, WA
Veteran Member
Posts:3453
| | 16 Jan 2008 12:52 PM |
| since when do expenses require justification? i'd be out of this hobby asap if that were the case. why can't we love mohair for mohair's sake?  a | | | |
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Mike Rupp
Veteran Member
Posts:1354
| | 16 Jan 2008 12:58 PM |
| If air pollution is a major concern, we need to get rid of 2 stroke engines. Ever seen how much smoke they belch out? Oil is added to the gas for lubrication.
If your conscience is getting at you, do not use anything with a 2 stroke engine such as a weedwacker, leaf blower, snowmobile, chainsaw, etc. | | | |
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Craig Miller
Posts:11799
| | 16 Jan 2008 01:31 PM |
| Yep, you are right Mike. Although like most things there is no reason to be extreme about a decision. Using a chainsaw 2x a year is a lot different than riding a snowmobile for several hours every weekend. All things in moderation.
Speaking of which... My father-in-law just bought a 4 cycle snowmobile. Quiet and much lower emissions. It's pretty cool.
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Roger Carr
Advanced Member
Posts:828
| | 16 Jan 2008 02:10 PM |
| I was born in Nebraska (look I contributed to the conversation) | | | |
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Mike Rupp
Veteran Member
Posts:1354
| | 18 Jan 2008 09:35 AM |
| I think there seems to be a big push for most people to do something about air pollution / global warming / saving the environment, etc. The problem lies in the hurry to get converted to diesel they overlook the issue of what actual impact that conversion has to emissions.
Gasoline engines today, like Andy mentioned, are highly tuned to burn as much fuel as possible in the combustion process. O2 sensors working with the engine management system alter the fuel/air mixture to burn as much gas as possible, thus limiting tailpipe emissions. Diesels like the 300tdi with mechanical fuel pumps and no engine management system to speak of will undoubtedly produce more tailpipe emissions than a 4.0 liter gas engine.
It all depends on what your priorities are. If you want more range out of the vehicle, the diesel will do that. If you don't want to give your money to the middle east and are using biofuels, fine. But if you think that the diesels will save the environment, think again.
Craig, I've never driven a 4 stroke snowmobile, so I'm not sure how well they perform. There has been a major push with outboard marine engines over the last 10 years to 4 stroke engines, so I'm sure that the performance will be there on snowmobiles in time. I grew up snowmobiling in the northern parts of Wisconsin and always hated being in the back part of a group of snowmobiles. My eyes would water from being exposed to all of the smoke. It was nasty. | | | |
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