Amos Aarsvold
 Basic Member Posts:160
 | | 26 Oct 2010 02:22 PM |
| As mentioned in the Satellite phone thread there are a number of satellite enabled gps locators available on the market as alternatives the SPOT and Delorme/SPOT units. As an avid fisherman and member of a group that enjoys time in the salt aboard what is pretty much a piece of Tupperware, these tools get discussed quite bit amongst that circle. These tools aren't just in use by fishermen and boaters though, pilots, hikers, SAR teams, and our servicemen all use these as well for good reason. I've personally been saving up for one in lieu of picking up a SPOT since I refuse to pay $100/yr. for their service. Here is ACR's comparison of their systems to the SPOT: http://www.acrelectronics.com/faqs/spotvs.aspx#Q1 Personal Locator Beacons (PLB's) are much smaller than their full fledged counterparts, Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacons (EPIRB's). ACR has been in the game for much longer than SPOT and makes some very tough PLB's that capable of sending limited messages of "I'm safe", "I'm Here" w/ location, and their original function of a distress call. The two service levels are about half the annual price of the spot messenger service ($40 basic, $50 "plus"). This particular service currently has a limited service area, but the gps-enabled distress beacon function works anywhere on the planet. 
The EPIRB's are primarily used on marine vessels due to their power and functionality. For some of our more worldly overlanders I think there could be some benefit for going for one of these "whole enchilada's." Some of these are even capable of integrating with your other electronics [possibly APRS?] you may have onboard. These units are also capable of the same messenging service. 
Here is the link to ACR's homepage: http://www.acrelectronics.com/default.aspx | | |
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Curtis Bray
 Basic Member Posts:189
 | | 26 Oct 2010 02:43 PM |
| That ACR looks like a promising piece of gear. Since I travel in 3rd world areas my family always worries when they don't hear from me regularly (phone and internet can be very difficult to find). I need an alternative. One) the sat phone for more in-depth conversation and data delivery. And a SPOT or this ACR PLB for a quick check in message and map tracking.
Me like!
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Nate Skate
 Advanced Member Posts:725
 | | 26 Oct 2010 03:25 PM |
| Looks like about a six year payoff versus the SPOT? | | | |
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Craig Miller Posts:11803
 | | 26 Oct 2010 04:14 PM |
| I couldn't find a price for the hardware. Did you find it somewhere Nate? | | | |
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Amos Aarsvold
 Basic Member Posts:160
 | | 26 Oct 2010 04:50 PM |
| Reading ACR's comparison of their products versus the SPOT leads me to believe that you could argue the two products in much the same way as the CB vs HAM debate. Our densely forested terrain here in Western Washington and Orgeon strains satellite based coms. If my life were in the balance I would want to make darn sure that my beacon would be heard/found. I think this highlights one of the key differences between the SPOT and PLB. The PLB is primarily for safety and rescue whereas the SPOT has a more recreational focus. If you are in dense forest you may inadvertantly freak out your significant other when SPOT doesn't send out a breadcrumb or two due to poor reception. I think it creates an artificial dependency. There is a third PLB (McMurdo Fast Find, $300) out there on the market, but it is strictly a rescue beacon without messaging capability. Here's the cost comparison:
| |
Unit |
Year 1 |
Year 2 |
Year 3 |
Year 4 |
Year 5 |
Year 6 |
Year 7 |
Year 8 |
| SPOT w/service |
$120 |
$100 |
$220 |
$100 |
$320 |
$100 |
$420 |
$100 |
$520 |
$100 |
$620 |
$100 |
$720 |
$100 |
$820 |
$100 |
$920 |
| ACR PLB-350C w/ basic service |
$430 |
$40 |
$470 |
$40 |
$510 |
$40 |
$550 |
$40 |
$590 |
$40 |
$630 |
$40 |
$670 |
$40 |
$710 |
$40 |
$750 |
| ACR PLB-350C w/ plus service |
$430 |
$60 |
$490 |
$60 |
$550 |
$60 |
$610 |
$60 |
$670 |
$60 |
$730 |
$60 |
$790 |
$60 |
$850 |
$60 |
$910 |
Here's some info on useful life: - ACR PLB 11yr useful life, 5yr warranty beforeservice required. http://www.acrelectronics.com/support/useful.htm - No data available from SPOT other than $30/yr replacement plan. 1 yr warranty. Here's some more interesting info on the net about SPOT and other PLB's: http://14erskiers.com/franksblog/2010/06/spot-gps-messengers-worth-it-or-worthless/ http://www.equipped.com/ http://gpstracklog.com/2010/02/spot-gets-some-competition.html | | | |
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Craig Miller Posts:11803
 | | 26 Oct 2010 06:37 PM |
| Just read through the 14erskiers.com link and it's clear that the person who wrote it doesn't understand how GPS, satellite messaging, or SAR work.
They waited "30 minutes" for SAR to find them??? A reasonable timeframe for SAR with a SPOT would be 3-4 hours minimum.
They were descending the face of a mountain, and think it is the backpack fabric that prevented them from getting GPS coverage? Clearly, it was the mountain. I don't care what kind of technology you have, if there is a mountain between you and a satellite it won't work. GPS units require 4 satellites to provide a 3D GPS fix.
Whether it is a 4x4s transfer case, a chainsaw, or other item, some basic knowledge of the technology is required before it can be used effectively.
I stopped reading 2/3s of the way down as it was a complete waste of time. I haven't looked at either of the other two links. If the ACR units have better communications satellite coverage then that will improve the odds of getting a signal out, but even that is unlikely if one is positioned deep inside a canyon or other steep walls. Line of sight to the satellites is required for all of these devices. The latest SPOT units have a much improved GPS chipset (released 2 years after the original unit) but are still using the older/poorer sat network. According to the other thread, they are getting ready to launch some new satellites to fill in the gaps though.
The other question I find myself asking is, "How often will one want to upgrade a piece of hardware like this?" Technology changes fast and I know I'd probably want a newer unit before the 5 year break even point.
Craig
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Scott Bruder
 Advanced Member Posts:564
 | | 26 Oct 2010 08:31 PM |
| Wow, this is a lot of information! I have to go with Curtis' idea of having a Sat phone (I'm keeping the Iridium I decided) and a SPOT or ACR PLB combo! Since using the sat phones in Africa and for one "issue" I had in Alaska I have become a firm believer in them for the simple fact you can actually have a detailed conversation with emergency services as opposed to just sending a signal or SOS message if that isn't completely neccessary! If you are really "out there" and have requested emergency services it may still take a significant amount of time for them to arrive! During that time you can have emergency sevices on the phone and aiding in say medical precedures over the phone in the mean time! I have done and do quite od solo travelling and for me the scenario of hitting the SOS button on a SPOT or ACR PLB backed up with a medic or doctor telling me how to save my life myself over the phone is, as they say, PRICELESS!
It sounds to me like Amos and Craig are really informed on this stuff! Thank you for your insights and the time you have spent researching this!
I think at this point you will find me showing up next spring with a SPOT 2, my Iridium, A Garmin Rino, A Ham radio (thanks for the help Craig), a TabletKiosk with Overland Navigator, my Crackberry, and the "I may as well be lame" Cobra CB! At that point if something comes out after my first year of service with the SPOT which is better then my initial investment is minimal and it can be sold used at theat poinjt I assume! What do you think about that plan Amos and Craig? It sounds like so much and ridiculous doesn't it? | | | |
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Scott Bruder
 Advanced Member Posts:564
 | | 26 Oct 2010 08:35 PM |
| Christ! I might have to hire a driver so I can navigate and communicate! LOL | | | |
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Craig Miller Posts:11803
 | | 26 Oct 2010 09:04 PM |
| LOL Scott. I think there's a point where you can have too much. I'd suggest adapting what you bring based on the trip. Solo vs Group, US vs Foreign soil, backpacking or only driving, etc.
If you go with a group a lot of that stuff can be left at home. I don't think a Rhino, Sat phone, SPOT, or even a cell phone are necessary in a group that's convoying. If there is trouble, the group will address it and get you to safety long before a paramedic shows up at your remote location and then calls for a chopper. Navigation and communication are still necessary with a group.
Solo trips into really remote areas definitely warrant a more comprehensive communications plan. Whether that is a note with a friend to contact the authorities if you haven't checked in by a certain date/time or something more advanced like a SPOT and/or a SAT phone. After hearing your story about getting your legged trapped under the truck while on a remote solo trip I certainly understand why you have both a SPOT and a Sat phone though.
Craig
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Amos Aarsvold
 Basic Member Posts:160
 | | 26 Oct 2010 09:30 PM |
| Craig- I probably should added the caveat that the real value of that post was contained within the comments. A representative from SPOT actually responded to the post and addressed some of the questions. The second and third links may actually be worth a read if you're considering laying your hard earned dollar down for any of these devices. At the moment I own neither of these devices because I'm having a hard time deciding what I'm really wanting out of the device beyond the obvious. If it isn't readily apparent I am leaning more towards an ACR PLB. The fact that the device performs its fundamental function independant of subscription-based services is a huge bonus for me and ensures that I'll keep it around JIC. The messaging function is just a bonus or luxury in my opinion and I'd like to know I didn't waste $200 for a service I don't really need, in which case it breaks even after just over 3 years without the additional service on the PLB. If I want to leave breadcrumbs for one or two trips a year $40-60 is easier to swallow. | | | |
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Scott Bruder
 Advanced Member Posts:564
 | | 28 Oct 2010 12:42 AM |
| I think the paragraph you just wrote Amos may have swayed me to your thinking! That is sound logic! And since I am not terribly interested in whether people track my movements or whether I "check-in" or not your logic makes even more sense!
Craig, you are right about the "too much" issue in the cab on a given trip! As you know I have been looking at it from a prism of being out there alone! That being said I am hoping to minimize those trips and be a part of the "group" in the future where all that stuff isn't needed! Really the Garmin Rino is just for those times when I take off away from the vehicle hunting, fishing or hiking! The PLB is really just to carry in case I shoot myself or fall into a river and need emergency services! I suppose the Sat phone is just for peace of mind and using when I travel overseas! You're right, I should for the most part in this NWOS group be able to leave them home! I have never really given the group thing that much thought until now! All the group stuff I have done in the past has been at events like the Rubithon or Cruise Moab etc.! There it is a lot of "yayhoo's" and all they use and want is a CB!! I am hoping to find a "classier" (for lack of a better term) off-roader in this new OVERLANDING deal! Don't get me wrong, I like beer! But not for breakfast in my oatmeal! LOLOL
Thanks to the both Amos and Craig for your insights here! | | | |
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Scott Bruder
 Advanced Member Posts:564
 | | 31 Oct 2010 12:41 AM |
| Amos and Craig,
Thought I would end this thread with my research! I spent some time on the PLB vs SPOT issue and even sicked my father on it a bit! He is VERY adept and good at this stuff! The conclussion came back this way! While the SPOT is a "neat" item and has some fun features it has some very serious drawbacks at this point! One, it has a pretty bad record at this point of being unreliable and not very durable! In this area it also seems largely "underpowered" as well! In forests and canyons it appears to be lacking greatly! The PLB's have a much stonger signal and are reviewed and critiqued as very durable and supremly reliable! Especially in signal strength! The PLB's also require NO service plan and are free of service charges if you merely want a rescue beacon! Yes, they cost more for the unit, but how much is your life or your loved one's life worth in the end? That being said there is a model available at REI by a company called McMurdo which is as low as $250 and is supposedly a very good unit if you stricly want a rescue beacon! McMurdo has other models but I did not look into them!
The ACR's also offer the recreational quality of a "check-in" feature now which also sends your coordinates much like the track feature on the SPOT! The SPOT does not have that "fun" feature to itself! The service fee for these two features is a mere $40 to $50 per year if you want them! Significantly less than the annual fee for the SPOT! Did I mention these are purely optional to the PLB's which work without any annual cost after you have registered them! Did I also mention the satellite system for these is a military based 66 sattelite web?
As you can tell I am NOT impressed with the SPOT! Like Amos said, it is a recreational "toy" that has the ability to be a search and rescue beacon! THE ACR AND McMurdo PLB'S ARE SERIOUS SEARCH AND RESCUE BEACON'S WHICH HAVE THE OPTION OF ADDING A FEW "TOY" FEATURES!!
All that said my choice is the ACR! They have been around a long time, are VERY durable, use the COSPAS-SARSAT international search and rescue system and operations and I can still provide my contacts with check-in and tracking messages! It is expensive in the initial outlay but it's my life and I do stuff I shouldn't! My parents even offered to pay the difference for the higher-end model with the check-in and tracking and to pay for that annual fee! haha! Gotta love them! My mother specifically mentioned how much happier she wpould have been had I had one on my two solo Alaska outback and Colorado to San Diego off-raod adventure! Again, solo! My father, like me, is a "map geek" and wants to follow my track's on trips!
Anyway, if anyone has any questions feel free to ask! I may be able to answer them!
Sorry, this was so long-winded but there is a lot of information to pass on, these devices are not cheap, and we are talking about potentially saving a life or lives! | | | |
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Nate Skate
 Advanced Member Posts:725
 | | 31 Oct 2010 08:30 AM |
| I've been quite happy with my SPOT for the last three years. In open country, where I tend to travel, it's never missed a beat over months of usage. I probably won't replace it till sat phones become cheaper and more reliable, although I've heard the Iridium ones are quite good now. | | | |
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Anthony Lawson
 New Member Posts:80
 | | 31 Oct 2010 10:24 AM |
| Good info here and it's got me thinking. I was planning on getting a sat phone. However my only purpose for the sat phone was to reach out in the event of an emergency. Now I'm thinking the SAR beacon is a much more efficient method.
I also did a bunch of research on sat phones recently and learned the sat network that currently supports the phones is due to be obsolete in a couple years and there is no replacement planned yet. The reason being is the proliferation of cell phones killed the sat phone user base. The amount of sat subscribers can not sustain the huge network costs it needs to operate. The current network is only functional because it went bankrupt and all debt was lost. | | | |
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Scott Bruder
 Advanced Member Posts:564
 | | 31 Oct 2010 02:28 PM |
| I hadn't heard that Anthony! That would piss me off! When I have used them in the past I loved it! Making phone calls from the middle of nowhere in northern Zimbabwe was awesome! In fact, my PH used one often to communicate from the camp! I just don't see how a cell phone could ever replace that ability even here when we are talking about the areas we all like to go! I can only hope the gas, exploration, mining etc. and other industries will always see a need for them! I would think the commercial use is 95+ percent of the market! That kind of talk makes me nervous! I must admit to liking my sat phone even if I never use it!
Nate, have you ever had to call or deal with SPOT and their customer service? I am curious because in my research A LOT of the complaints had to do with dealing with them! I mean it seemed like a viral subject for a lot of people! Of course, you know how that goes! I was surprised the level of frustration and volume of complaints of the "customer sevice"! Or, "no service"! I wouldn't know myself though! Usually if it's here or there I tend to discount complainers as just those who complain about everything! However, there is an unusually high volume of complaints posted around and I almost universally those who called the customer service department were not happy! I tend to take customer service complaints with a grain of salt anyway! Unless it's Dell computer! Then it is all warranted! hahahaha!
Maybe someday someone a whole lot smarter than me wil make a PLB/Sat Phone/Handheld Mapping GPS/FRS/HAM combination (right now I carry in my pack a Garmin Rino, Sat Phone and soon a PLB) which includes all the different technologies!! One unit to replace three? I'll call Garmin, Motorola and ACR on monday! Don't hold your breath! | | | |
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Craig Miller Posts:11803
 | | 31 Oct 2010 04:03 PM |
| I think when you consider how many SPOT units have been sold that the number of complaints is quite small.
DeLorme makes a handheld GPS that also has the SPOT unit. | | | |
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Anthony Lawson
 New Member Posts:80
 | | 31 Oct 2010 06:22 PM |
| Cell phone is not a competitor to sat phones per say, they both serve two different applications in my mind. The issue is the small amount of sat users (somewhere in the 225k range) do not generate enough revenue to launch and maintain an array of satellites. The only reason GPS is still around and so prolific is our tax payer dollars built the satellite network for the government and they are nice enough to let civilians use it for free. If the GPS products had to pay for the network itself I bet they would find the same peril as sat phones.
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Nate Skate
 Advanced Member Posts:725
 | | 01 Nov 2010 01:55 PM |
| I guess they had quite a few problems with the second generation SPOT units. I would imagine they have ironed it out by now? Very few problems with 1st gen that I know of.
Scott, I never had to deal with SPOT customer service because the unit has always just worked like it should.
Anthony, thanks for hosing my dream of a cheap sat phone. I still might rent one next summer. | | | |
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