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Subject: Stumbling RRC

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Brett Curry



02/23/2010 9:31 AM Alert 

Guess I've finally reached the point of getting tired of banging my head against the wall on this.  I've got a 1990 RRC that has a weird stumbling problem.  It used to do this only occasionally now it is getting more severe and frequent when it does happen.  This stumbling I'm describing seems to happen after it gets warmed up.  Only happens when engine is under load (pulling a hill, or on the highway).  When it stumbles it quits firing but has always taken back off without stalling.

When I first got the truck (year and a half ago) it had a TPS sensor code.  This made sense so I replaced it.  No luck with problem.  All codes gone, no check engine light?

Two months ago I was going through the 120,000 mi service. 

New Plugs, new Magnecors, fuel filter, air filter, replaced all the vaccum lines and the T piece, flame trap, rotor, distributor cap, cleaned all grounds I could find, replaced alternator (failed a week after other service), changed all fluids, battery tests good, adjusted timing (seems happiest at 7degrees BTDC).

Suspected MAF so I unplugged it out of curiosity.  Ran rich exahst smelled bad,(shortening lifespan of cats) took it for a spin on a known problem hill, no stumbling, got on the highway, no stumbling, tried hill again, no stumbling.  Had a buddy with an extra one so I tried a different MAF.  Same problem. Makes me think it may be something not present when truck is in "limp home mode"?

This last weekend headed out to enjoy the sun, southbound on I-5 stumbling so bad I got off the highway.  Stopped to let the dogs have a break, truck shut off for 10 minutes, the whole way home not a single problem?

Would a bad amplifier on the distributor do this?

Bad Coil?

Fuel pressure regulator?

Fuel pump?

Don't want to keep throwing parts at it.  Everything else I've done I'm chalking up to maintenance. 

Any testing or ideas would be very helpful.

Andy Hough



02/23/2010 9:41 AM Alert 
My '97 D1 would stumble occasionally, but it had low oil pressure and with the hydraulic lifters running low I theorized that the stumble problem was due to the lifters not having enough oil pressure to operate correctly. At speed on the highway when it stumbled it was like the engine came under extreme load for a few moments, then smoothed out and would be fine again. I had the 4.0L.

I don't have any idea if our engines were/are similar, but you may want to try putting a real oil pressure gauge on it just to see what kind of pressure you actually have; assuming you just have the light and no actual gauge.

It may also be sticking lifters, you could try running some seafoam in the oil (per instructions on bottle) to clean things up a bit inside.

I'm just guessing though.......so take it all with a grain of salt!

DD: 2009 Chevy HHR 1LT
Toy: 1999 Ford Ranger XLT 4x4
Scott Williams
Member Sponsor


02/23/2010 11:01 AM Alert 
Brett,

What cap and rotor did you use? It is critical that you use Lucas cap and a Lucas "S" rotor or you will have these symptoms. Also, if you used platinum plugs pull them out and use the OE copper core plugs. Let me know what you used and we'll go from there.

"I could never work here with you guys. All I would do is sniff markers and throw things into the streets." Rick Lindgren
Brett Curry



02/23/2010 11:14 AM Alert 
I ordered a lucas rotor and lucas cap from RN or AB. I'm not sure if it's the "S" rotor or not. I'll check tonight and post back. Will the "s" rotor, literally have the "s" written on it. I know the rotor does say Lucas? How do I know if I got the right cap? I do have platinum plugs in it right now. Cheap plug time in my future! Anybody know the part # of the OE Copper Core Plugs?
Dan Cronin
Moderator


02/23/2010 11:18 AM Alert 
Platinum plugs + Rover V8's = :-(

Honey Badger Trainer...
Brett Curry



02/23/2010 11:36 AM Alert 

rotor appears to be an "S" type

Cap ???









Scott Williams
Member Sponsor


02/23/2010 4:36 PM Alert 
That is an S rotor. Change your plugs out back to Champion. I believe the number is RN11YC? Or something close to that anyway. :-) Do that and then see what happens. One step at a time.

"I could never work here with you guys. All I would do is sniff markers and throw things into the streets." Rick Lindgren
Tom Thomas



02/24/2010 12:18 AM Alert 
Brett,
from my experience, more problems are caused by faulty ignitions than faulty fuel delivery systems. I had an old truck that ALWAYS let me know when to change plugs cuz it would spit and sputter when put under load (up hills, etc.) but run like a Swiss watch otherwise.

That being said though, do you have high idle during warm-up or a fluctuating idle? Have you checked your fuel pressure? And finally, have you put a vacuum gauge on it lately?
Brett Curry



02/24/2010 7:46 AM Alert 
Thanks for all the points. Exactly what I needed to get started. Champion plugs are first on my list. See what happens there. I'm trying to track down if the black cap is actually a lucas. Tom, in answer to your questions. No high idle during warm up. Idle is pretty consistent, might fluctuate just a bit. While changing the fuel filter my intention was to check pressure. Didn't realize that someone had put a screw on type filter on it so I didn't have the correct fittings for my pressure gauge. Need to do that just to see where I'm at.
I have not done any vaccum gauge testing on it. Not sure I would know where to start.
Keep the ideas coming. Plugs will go in this weekend.
Dustin Morrow
Member Sponsor


02/25/2010 8:51 PM Alert 

Brett,

I think you are on the right track. I had the same situation about 8 months ago and just started the troubleshooting process in the same way that you have here. Everything that has been listed is spot on. At the very end of my process, after new plugs, new wires, new cap, new rotor, new coil and new fuel filter, I was convinced it was the amplifier. I placed the order on line and waited for it to be shipped. While I was waiting I went to remove the amplifier and then had second thoughts about doing it before I had the new part. However, i did clean up the connections on the amplifier and the wire ends coming in with electronic contact cleaner. Put the wires back on the amplifier and bam...problem gone. I zip tied the wires down snug on the amp and have not had a problem since then. The new amplifier is still in the box in my parts bin.

Might be something for you to try as well.

Good luck...you will get it fixed.

Dustin


2011 KLR 650, 2007 LR3, 2004 DII, 1988 RRC
Brett Curry



02/27/2010 11:25 AM Alert 

Update....

Changed out the plugs to the champions this morning.  Gapped them per the manual.  Fired it up.  The old Bosch Platinums were all in pretty rough shape.  Carboned up.  Noticed right away a smother idle.  Took it out for a test spin.  Ran great....for awhile.  More power, better kickdown response, warmed up to full operating temp, still running good.  Did one more lap on a known problem hill (long steady grade of a couple of miles) and the stumbling reared it's ugly head.  Same as before, only happens while under load. 

My wife is running around in it today while I do the brakes on her disco.  Tonight I'll pull some plugs and see what shape they are in after some highway miles.  Removing the old plugs, all the cylinders were bad, some had more carbon than others all had some white residue on the electodes.  Guess that's good news that one didn't look lots different (steam cleaned for instance).  I still have them in the layout they were removed from the engine. Pics of two examples.

After I look at the plugs tonight I am also going to check the connection on the amp.  Clean the contacts and plug it back in.

I was driving it pretty hard during the test this morning.  When it stumbles it completely cuts off.  Maybe up to half a second.  Seems like the harder I'm driving the longer the cutoff is.  The tach does drop when this happens, then it takes back off. 

I'll post a pic of the plugs once I look at it tonight.

What should be the next step?









Mike Rupp
Member Sponsor


02/27/2010 11:42 AM Alert 
I wonder if it could be the vehicle speed sensor?

WZ7V

Study for amateur radio exams here


Brett Curry



02/27/2010 11:57 AM Alert 
Would that be intermittent and happen more when under load? I have had someone mention that to me before as a possibility. Guess I've got some research to do...
Scott Williams
Member Sponsor


02/27/2010 12:09 PM Alert 
Does your ignition amp have 2 or 3 pins on the connector? FYI the 3 pin will still only have 2 wires. :-)

"I could never work here with you guys. All I would do is sniff markers and throw things into the streets." Rick Lindgren
Scott Williams
Member Sponsor


02/27/2010 12:14 PM Alert 
Either the fuel or ignition is shutting off momentarily from the sounds of it. Speed sensor is certainly plausible.

Brett,

take each repair/guesstimate one at a time now so you can know exactly what fixes it.

I am thinking and typing here but you might want to look atthe back of the ignitions switch and make sure it isn't loose. That would account for complete cutting in/out and loss of instrumentation. The electrical portion of the switch loosens over time and can be resecured. PM or call me. The number is listed under repair shops. I can explain what to look for better that way. :-)

"I could never work here with you guys. All I would do is sniff markers and throw things into the streets." Rick Lindgren
Brett Curry



02/27/2010 12:23 PM Alert 
I'll have to check the ignition amp when my wife gets back. I don't lose all the instrumentation, just the tach starts dropping because the motor has. Spedo, and the rest keep on going. For some reason I've always thought in the back of my head the amp. Happens after motor warms up only. I just thought when they failed that the truck would stall. After cooling it would then start right up???
I appreciate the offer for a call. I will surely take you up on that once I have the truck back in front of me.
Scott, are you the guy from Columbia Rovers that picked up some ARB stuff from me in Kirkland?
Dan Cronin
Moderator


02/27/2010 2:48 PM Alert 
How old are your cats?

Honey Badger Trainer...
Brett Curry



02/27/2010 7:16 PM Alert 

Not sure on the cats?  No rattling around when I pound on them.  The entire exhaust looks to have been replaced at some time by the PO?  Looks to be the two pin ignition amp.  Where to tuck my greasy fingers next.






Craig Spaeth
Member Sponsor


02/27/2010 7:41 PM Alert 
I am following this closely. My 91 RRC will stutter and stumble if I do a full throttle run up a freeway on ramp. I have to push it pretty hard. The idle also searches when the engine is cold. I am hoping to do a full tune up sometime soon. Do you guys sell a tune up kit Scott?

the other Craig
Tom Thomas



02/28/2010 12:28 AM Alert 
Only happens when warm.
Only happens when under load.

My guess is either a weak coil, or ignition amplifier problems.

Coils are generally robust, and being non-mechanical, the only tell-tail signs of a 'bad' coil are leaking oil or dents. But they do lose their 'spark' so to speak, and after time don't put out as much volts as new. Common symptom of cutting out under load. At school we could test the output, but I don't know of any stores testing 'em.
Amplifiers are known trouble spots, maybe because of being located on the side of the dizzy, maybe because of poor design internally.

I would say swap in a borrowed ign amplifier and see what happens, but also consider upgrading the coil. Actually I would suggest retro-fitting a GM ignition module,maybe adding an MSD 6 box, and high output coil, but let's just start by borrowing a IA and see what happens.
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