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Subject: GPS questions

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Andy Berglund



06/05/2007 1:15 PM Alert 
since this is a new forum i thought i'd ask a n00b question. how do i find myself on a map with the numbers my GPS gives to me?

i know what lat and long are and the different datums, etc. what i don't know is how do i transfer that info onto a map such as a greentrails or something. do i need some sort of rulers or calipers?

thanks!

andy

I am loving the Gilmore Girls-Scott Williams
Craig Miller
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06/05/2007 2:22 PM Alert 

Andy,

This is a multi-part problem:
1. Understand what degrees minutes seconds are
2. Understand how they locate you on the earth.
3. Understand how to find those coordinates on a green trails map.


What format are your latitude and longitude in? Degrees Minutes Seconds (DMS), Decimal Degrees (DD), etc?

1 Degree = 60 minutes
1 Minute = 60 seconds

E.g. N45 30' 00" = North of the equator 45 degrees, 30 minutes, and 0 seconds

or in Decimal Degrees
N45 30' 00" = North of the equator 45.5 degrees.
Why .5? Because 30 minutes is 1/2 of 60 minutes (and there are 60 minutes in a degree).

If it was N45 30' 45" it would be N45.575

Lat long coordinates locate you on a globe rather than a map and are unique to a particular datum. You need to know that the globe/map you are using is based on the same datum as your GPS, or change your GPS to display coordinates in the same datum as your Map (don't forget to change it back).

Latitude starts at 0 degrees at the equator, and goes to 90 degrees at the north pole. Similarly it goes to -90 degrees at the south pole. Instead of positive /negative numbers you will also see latitude written as N45 30 30 where the N indicates that it is North or a positive value.

On most US maps Longitude starts at 0 degrees at the prime meridian, but if you are travelling in other parts of the world you need to read the map legend to determine where their prime meridian is (Many countries define their own prime meridian and datum). Assuming 0 is at the prime meridian then values go from 0 to 180 going East of the prime meridian and from 0 to -180 going West of the prime meridian. That second fact makes longitude in the US a little bit tricky since all of our values are negative and many people/GPSs replace the "-" sign with a W or "West" designation, people get confused when a larger value preceeded by a W moves them to the left instead of the right. I like to just change the W with a - sign when I see it, so my brain knows where it is at on the number line.

Now the part you are interested in, locating your position on a green trails map. Your green trails map will have several grids drawn on it, but one of them will have labels near the edge that are in degrees minutes seconds. Typically, the other grid is for UTM coordinates and you can ignore it for this application. If you have mentally converted your coordinates to decimal degrees, your map is in the same datum as your coordinates, then you just use this grid to locate yourself. I'd start with Latitude (North and South) and find a grid label on the map collar (white edge around map). Find another label that your value falls between and interopolate (estimate 1/2 of the way between or whatever portion of the interval your coordinate is between the two. Note that the grids are not usually at 1 degree intervals since that is a huge amount of area, so you have to be careful. Once you've figured out where you are, then you can use a ruler to pencil in a mark or just hold your thumb at that spot on the left hand margin while you repeat the process for longitude. Just make sure that when you do the longitude you realize that you are in Quadrant 2 so -123 is to the left of -122, etc.

I've attached a map with some of the map features highlighted.







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Andy Berglund



06/05/2007 9:33 PM Alert 
ok, so i can ignore UTM? on the web searches i've done UTM sounded like a reasonable system.

so i need to:

1.find out what datum the map i'm using is based off of
2.then use the lat/long given by my GPS to approx my location

does this sound right? how accurate can i find myself on the map? do most maps in the US tend to use degrees, minutes, seconds, or decimal degrees?

thanks again for the help craig! you might have just saved my life. or at least saved yourself the hassle of coming to find me somewhere.

andy

I am loving the Gilmore Girls-Scott Williams
Craig Miller
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06/05/2007 10:18 PM Alert 
UTM is definately easy to use, I said ignore those lines because you said you wanted to know how to locate yourself on a map with lat/lon. If you want to learn how to locate yourself with UTM Easting/Northings then you would ignore the lat/lon grid and use the UTM grid. Set your GPS to output lat/lon using the datum as the map and plot using them.

1. Yes, find out what the datum of the maps is AND set your GPS to output coordinates using that datum.
2. Yes, use those coordinates to approximate your location. In order to do this you will need to get familiar with converting between Degrees Minutes Seconds (DMS) and Decimal Degrees (DD). You can set your GPS to output either one.

How accurate can you find yourself on a map? Hmmm.... that is harder to answer as it is dependent on multiple factors including the scale / accuracy of the coordinates you were given (or read from your GPS), the accuracy of the map, your ability to estimate, AND your ability to read a map. That last part is key. When using a map, don't lose the big picture.

I use lat/lon to approximate where I am on the map. I then orient my map so that it is aligned with the landscape (pointing north), and then read the map to figure out where I am. E.g, so I'm about here, so that hill must be this thing on the map, and that lake we just passed must have been this lake on the map, and we just went around a corner on this road, so we must be "here".

Most maps use Degrees Minutes Seconds to label their grids. Both Green Trails and USGS 7.5' Topographic maps do anyway.

Craig


A



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Craig Miller
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06/05/2007 10:27 PM Alert 
A bit more about Datums.

If the map is old (pre-1995 or so) assume that the Datum of a Green Trails map is NAD27 if it isn't defined on the back. If it is newer, assume it is WGS84 (Same as your GPS).

If any map says it is NAD83, then don't worry about adjusting your GPS. NAD83=WGS84 for the type of mapping you are doing. If you can't remember this, then just get in the habit of always finding out what Datum was used on the map you are using and setting your GPS to use the same Datum.

Craig


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Andy Berglund



06/05/2007 10:39 PM Alert 
cool. thanks again. this should become a sticky.

which do you (and other map-peoples) prefer: UTM or lat/long? do you know which is the preferred method for nautical charting?

also, the bit about reading the map after you've made an approximation makes sense. thanks again! i would've brain raped you via PM but this seemed too valuable to keep to myself.

andy

I am loving the Gilmore Girls-Scott Williams
Craig Miller
Title Sponsor


06/05/2007 10:57 PM Alert 
In this day and age I'd stick with lat/lon (aka "Geographic" coordinates). UTM made sense in the 2D map and compass world. In the era of GPS Lat/Lon makes more sense.

UTM is favored by the military (Along with MGRS) and SAR but to use it, you need to learn about UTM Zones too. It is easy to use once you know it. Nearly all navigation maps have Lat/Lon, but not all have a UTM grid. If you cross UTM Zones (Like in the Quilomene) then it gets even more confusing. Stick with Lat/Lon.

Craig


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Craig Miller
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06/05/2007 10:58 PM Alert 
We could make it a sticky, or just put it in an article or the wiki once I get one online.

Craig

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Tony Sims



11/21/2007 10:52 PM Alert 
Just for the record -- sticky or not, I remembered this thread and came looking when trying to decide which datum I should use as default on my Garmin., and found what I needed. All my DeLorme Gazetters are new enough to use WGS84, so that's what the Garmin is set on.

Tony
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David Medeiros



01/26/2010 12:20 PM Alert 
This is an old thread, but I thought I’d add my 2c anyway.

For my part I find using UTM easier than lat/long on US topo maps or similar. The 1000m grid is easily dissected into tenths or hundredths allowing you to quickly narrow down your general location. You can also create (or buy) a simple “roamer” that allows you to measure out locations within the grid quickly and for various scales.

Lat/Long is a bit problematic in that degrees and seconds of arc must be converted to distance before accurately measuring for your location. Eyeballing by grid dissection is probably about the same here though I tend to think I can guesstimate by tenths better.

No reason why you wouldn’t use UTM with a GPS. The GPS unit will read your location in UTMs just as it would in lat/long; it’s up to you to use that info to find your location on a map. If you’re in the field and using a GPS device with a topo all you need to know is the map datum (usually printed on map) and the UTM read out from the GPS. Crossing zones is not a problem because the unit will know what zone you’re in so no need to really understand UTM system beyond that to put it into use.

David Medeiros
www.mapbliss.com
Jay Erickson
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01/28/2010 2:05 PM Alert 
Posted By Andy Berglund on 06/05/2007 10:39 PM
cool. thanks again. this should become a sticky.

which do you (and other map-peoples) prefer: UTM or lat/long?

 

Very good, technical information in this thread but the quickest way to locate gps coords on a map is to buy maps that already have them overlayed.  I really like the Delorme topo atlas books, they are a bit large in scale (1:160,000) but it does cover the entire State.

 


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Craig Miller
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01/28/2010 5:20 PM Alert 
Jay - How is what you are describing different than the approach I described?

David - UTM coordinates are very useful for personal use, and are useful for group use if everyone is using them (E.g. the Army). Unfortunately they don't work as well with a group like ours where everyone is using maps with different projections, and have a variety of different technologies at their disposal. Lat/Lon/WGS84 has become the popular standard for sharing location information. E.g. GPX, KML, and NMEA0183 are all based on Lat/Lon/WGS84, and most hiking maps now have Lat/Lon/WGS84 grids overlayed on top. IMHO, every Overlander should know both systems but start with Latitude/Longitude since it is the basis for all others.

Being in meters instead of degrees, the UTM or MGRS grid does make it really easy to estimate distance and can be used to do so w/o using UTM coordinates for communication.

A map based on the UTM projection is a great way to navigate. This projection doesn't distort angles makeing it easy to use with a compass.

We go over all of this in the NW Overland Society Navigation 101 class I've given. If there is interest, I could give it again.

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Jay Erickson
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01/30/2010 5:04 AM Alert 

Craig, lol, it isn't.  I just had to read your answer 3 or 4 times before I realized there wasn't going to be a math test involved  ;)

Seriously though, I couldn't agree more that terrain navigation is a worthwhile skill to develop since even the best gps is only as good as the map paired with it.

 


Traded in all my project vehicles for my 2009 Xterra, not an ounce of buyers remorse.
Dustin Morrow
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01/30/2010 6:52 AM Alert 

Craig,

I would be very interested in your Navigation 101 class.

Dustin


2011 KLR 650, 2007 LR3, 2004 DII, 1988 RRC
Craig Miller
Title Sponsor


01/30/2010 8:26 AM Alert 
Posted By Jay Erickson on 01/30/2010 5:04 AM

Craig, lol, it isn't.  I just had to read your answer 3 or 4 times before I realized there wasn't going to be a math test involved  ;)

Seriously though, I couldn't agree more that terrain navigation is a worthwhile skill to develop since even the best gps is only as good as the map paired with it.

 



 

Yeah - everything after "David -" was in response to David's post.  He seemed pretty familiar with mapping concepts, so I indulged myself a little.  All of these concepts are a lot easier to understand in person where I can use props and graphics to explain myself in detail.  Your comment has me thinking though, that when I write-up the navigation section in the handbook I'm going to need a basic "Here's how you do it in the US" section that doesn't provide all the details necssary to do it anywhere in the world.


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Craig Miller
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01/30/2010 8:29 AM Alert 
Posted By Dustin Morrow on 01/30/2010 6:52 AM

Craig,

I would be very interested in your Navigation 101 class.

Dustin



 

I'll start another thread with additional details where I can gauge interest.

Craig


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David Medeiros



02/01/2010 8:49 AM Alert 

Yeah - everything after "David -" was in response to David's post.  He seemed pretty familiar with mapping concepts, so I indulged myself a little. 


I’m a cartographer actually (and recently a GIS Technician as well, blech), so I’m relatively familiar with mapping concepts ; )   I appreciate the in depth replies!

I don’t, however, have a ton of field experience with map and compass navigation so I’d be interested in your class as well. I’m not sure when I’d be able to make it up to your neck of the woods though. 

As you mentioned geographic coordinates are the standard for cross platform sharing of locations. But that has more to do with sharing between systems and not personal use. I can see how a string of vehicles with different map users would benefit from lat/long in the field though. I wonder what the VDEG says about this? Anybody here have a copy?


David Medeiros
www.mapbliss.com
Craig Miller
Title Sponsor


02/01/2010 10:04 AM Alert 
I've taught the class indoors during the winter in the past, but I'm thinking it would be more fun to incorporate it into a 2-3 day trip. That way, folks can get hands on practice. I need to create the 201 - Basic Map/GPS based navigation course content too. While I always carry paper maps just in case, a GPS works significantly better in a vehicle and is probably what most people here would prefer to learn.

Craig


My Overland Adventure Blog
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