Craig Miller
Title Sponsor
 | | 01/11/2010 3:55 PM |
 Alert | You're overcomplicating APRS and understating the setup involved with an HF radio.
APRS - Any GPS setup, including Garmin and Overland Navigator require 1 wire to a cigarette lighter (or other 12V power source), and 1 wire from that device to the Kenwood radio. All wires are pre-made by Kenwood or others. GPS units can be mounted robustly in a wide variety of locations using a RAM mount (they have hundreds of options.). Since most of us wind up installing a GPS at some point anyway, the amount of *additional* work to do APRS consists of physically running ONE wire between the GPS and the radio. The GPS and radio are typically mounted very close to each other already.
HF - Requires two antennas, and an auto-tuner. Mounting antennas and routing antenna wire is as hard or harder than mounting a GPS.
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Jay Erickson
Member Sponsor
| | 01/12/2010 2:17 AM |
Alert | I bought my Uniden BC785D scanner from them when it first came out and was quite satisfied with their knowledge, friendliness to answer my totally noob questions and pricing. I know I should support my local radio merchants but when I tried that here in WA I met people who seemed pissed off at me and the world in general and had no time for a rank beginner. HRO was a completely different world, not only were their prices better, no sales tax for me, and they really took the time to listen to what I wanted to do with a scanner and agreed that my $500 wouldn't be wasted on needless features, 6 or 7 years later and I'm still happy with it.
When the time comes for me to buy my ham gear, I'm driving to HRO in Tigard for sure! | |
Traded in all my project vehicles for my 2009 Xterra, not an ounce of buyers remorse. | |
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Mike Rupp
Member Sponsor
| | 01/12/2010 6:39 AM |
Alert | Craig, the Yeasu ATAS-120 tunes itself when connected to the 857. Running 2 coax cables along the same path is no harder than running one. It is without a doubt no more difficult to install a fully functional HF setup using the 857 / ATAS-120 then it is to install a 2 meter radio.
I absolutely hate clutter. It drives me mad. I realize that I'm slightly OCD, but I still can't allow myself to mount a netbook or a tablet pc to some sort of mount inside my truck. If I had some sort of built in screen that I could use, I'd be willing to deal with the additional issues to make APRS work. I've struggled with this topic for at least a few years and still can't come to a resolution. | |
WZ7V
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Craig Miller
Title Sponsor
| | 01/12/2010 8:10 AM |
Alert | I thought we were talking about the Icom 706-MKIIG and Jerry's comments that the Kenwood was more difficult to install? IMO, neither setup is difficult with or without a tuner or an APRS display (GPS) respectively.
As to being OCD about clutter... yeah, that's a difficult one to negotiate on a truck with a lot of gear. I had *very* little clutter when I integrated everything into my carputer, but that was a pretty complicated setup. It can be done much easier now, but still isn't a simple install. If you really are willing to go the extra mile though there are numerous options available to you. Some you might consider are: Having a monitor fiberglassed in, a motorized display that opens up when you turn the key on, and a rearview mirror screen. I'm not sure if the rearview mirror screen comes in a touchscreen version or not. The computer can go under the passenger seat, the TNC/APRS unit in the headliner, and that allows you to use a radio with a small faceplate next to the cigarette lighter on the center console.
One final APRS option that allows you to send and receive others locations but not view them on a GPS display is the Greenlight labs GPS and one of the Kenwood radios. You can see the lat/lon of others locations on the radio, get their hailing frequency, etc. It gives you many of the benefits of APRS out of the box. Personally I'd take the additional functionality of the MKIIG over the Kenwood if I was going to have APRS w/o a display.
Craig
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Ed Sanman
| | 01/12/2010 9:06 AM |
Alert | I can give the members considering APRS a real simple wiring solution for connecting your radio transmitter, GPS, and 12v power. I have Kenwood D700A's in both the D90 and Nissan, with custom Blue Hills cables in both. Just give the guy the make and model of your equipment, and the lengths of wire needed to reach each piece and it'll be delivered to your door in no time. He puts the proper connector on all ends, and it comes as one piece with branches coming out of the cable for the transmitter, GPS and power just where you asked them to be. For example, I might request a cable 55" long with a Garmin (specific to my GPS) connector on one end, a Kenwood data connector on the other end, and a power cable for hard wiring, 16" long placed 30" from the radio connector. It doesn't get any simpler, and they're not that expensive. I can solder pretty well, but those Garmin data cables have wires about the size of a human hair and I find them extremely difficult to deal with. I'd also like to respond to Dale's comment - Posted By Dale Avery on 11/03/2009 9:22 AM
As an aside, I'd like everyone to question the reason for purchasing a dualband radio. How often are you guys on the west side really using 440? I think I've made less than a dozen contacts on that band in almost 30 years of hamming. I use the cross band repeater function quite frequently, and suspect many other members would find it a valuable feature. Maybe you don't have an HT now, but one could be in your future. Stay in radio contact with someone many miles away and well out of HT range while you leave your truck and do some task, or just sit around the campfire. I'm not sure about other radio brands, but can put my Kenwood in cross band repeat mode in about 5 keystrokes and in less than 10 seconds. For our purposes, you must have a 2 meter/70cm, dual band mobile radio for cross band repeat, and the HT must also be dual band, or at minimum 70cm (440). | | | |
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Todd Eliason
Title Sponsor
| | 01/12/2010 10:02 AM |
Alert | | I use Dual band quite often talking to the group I'm with on one band and listening to the same band on the other frequency to monitor a local repeater for latecomers or strays. I also use the 440 band on the second tuner to monitor FRS traffic for folks that do not have amateur radios while using the group frequency on the first band for talking with the folks that do have their HAM. | |
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05 Land Rover LR3 | |
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Ben Bailey
| | 01/12/2010 10:15 AM |
Alert | | That makes me think... during the times when I've been out with guys who had mobiles in their cars, I've been told that my walkies could not be monitored, that they would not work. But.... yeah, that's both true and false isn't it? I mean, If I'm just down the road from a 7cm radio, it should be able to tune in -- correct? And shouldn't we be able to talk? I wouldn't expect great performance -- my walkies only go about one mile from car to car -- but maybe I should be looking for a dual band if this is correct because my brother and dad don't have hams (yet, I'll be working on them). | |
RBBailey
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Todd Eliason
Title Sponsor
| | 01/12/2010 10:22 AM |
Alert | Most dual bands can monitor the FRS radios natively. To talk your have to open the radio up and clip some wires or crush some diodes to open the filters on those frequencies. It is relatively easy and imho a good idea for emergencies. Actually using those frequencies with your high power radio/antenna stretches the letter of the law. Still, most people use FRS/GMRS without the licensing the law requires. Modifying the radio to have the capability, as I understand it is not illegal. ;) I do it for my SAR activities, which is allowed (mostly), and therfore only buy radios that have an established modification. http://mods.dk/ That said, the answer you want to hear is not one that will be posted in an online community. It would be discussed over a beer with friends. | |
93 LR Defender 110
05 Land Rover LR3 | |
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Ben Bailey
| | 01/12/2010 10:38 AM |
Alert | Ah, yes, the FRS frequencies are just above the 7cm, I was wrong. No discussion going on here.
The FRS/GMRS radios all tell you that you both need and don't need a license -- depending on what channel you use on the toy radio you just bought from Costco. Most people probably don't even bother to read the manual enough to know that they are one channel away from breaking Federal regulations. I'm sure my 7 year old was thinking he needed a license, but he decided to stick it to the FCC and transmit on channel 7 ANYWAY!! | |
RBBailey
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Mike Rupp
Member Sponsor
| | 01/12/2010 10:50 AM |
Alert | Well Craig, you are right, I guess. I could very easily install either. My issue is that the Kenwood D710a / APRS setup doesn't overcome my constraint: OCD. Sure I could run wires everywhere, drill holes in the roof and make it work. The problem is that if I did, I would never set foot in my own car. I am the type of person that can't stand rattles in a truck, let alone a GPS mounted to the dash or heaven forbid a tablet pc. Another thing that I will [b] never [/b]do is drill a hole in the roof. So, for me, the APRS setup just isn't happening. If I could figure out something that completely eliminates clutter, it's a different story, but for now I just can't go there.
Jerry can obviously give his own reasoning.
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WZ7V
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Todd Eliason
Title Sponsor
| | 01/12/2010 10:58 AM |
Alert | I have used APRS for years and never had to drill a hole in the roof. Heck, you don;t even need a surface mount antenna especially with the Sirf3 chipset. I use a garmin 276C and the D700 and see others positions on my GPS screen. This is what Ed was saying about the Blue Hills Cables, very clean and easy. Very OCD friendly. | |
93 LR Defender 110
05 Land Rover LR3 | |
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Ben Bailey
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Mike Rupp
Member Sponsor
| | 01/12/2010 11:09 AM |
Alert | Todd, I'll check out the Blue Hills Cables and see if I could somehow figure out a setup that wouldn't drive me nuts. Are you just using the built in antenna that is on the 276C? I've been waiting for the Yaesu FTM-350R Yaesu dual bander to be approved by the FCC before I make any decision. It appears that the FTM-350R has been approved recently and is now for sale: www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/3350.html I need to see if there are any differences between that and the Kenwood D710a that would make the FTM-350R more attractive to me. | |
WZ7V
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Jerry Horn
| | 01/12/2010 2:05 PM |
Alert | Posted By Craig Miller on 01/11/2010 9:30 AM
Jerry,
Why do you feel that the MKIIG is easier to install or operate than a Kenwood D710a?
Craig
Craig, sorry my reply is not very timely as there are a lot of posts since your question. Evidently I led you to believe that I was comparing the Kenwood TM-D710 to the Icom 706MKIIG. Not at all. The Kenwood is a top-of-the-line VHF, UHF radio loaded with bells and whistles such as Cross Band operation, APRS ready, Echo Link ready and 1000 memory channels while the Icom is a basic HF, VHF, UHF radio with only 105 memory channels. The difference is HF. As far as I know Kenwood does not make an all-band mobile, but Yaesu does; the FT-857D. I chose the IC-706MKIIG because I think it is easier to program than the Yaesu. I find APRES fascinating and enjoy reading and hearing about it, but I have no intention of using it at this time so I don't require a radio or accessories so equipped. A fellow on one of the nets I frequent is in the process of setting up a new Kenwood for APRES and Echo Link and I am looking forward to seeing both yours and his installations at the next opportunity.
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JERRY
Enjoying the backroads of the Pacific Northwest | |
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Craig Miller
Title Sponsor
| | 01/12/2010 2:18 PM |
Alert | Mike,
You indicated above that if there was a way to get a clean, built in screen that you'd be willing to do the extra work to make it happen. You can install a carputer very cleanly, without rattles, and without butchery but it takes a lot of work. There are numerous factory looking installs at mp3car.com. Brent had a screen mounted into the dash of one of their DIIs that came out perfect. The center dash panel optionally *might* be the one spot where butchery would be required to make it come out clean... fortunately, that piece can be replaced at any time.
I don't personally think you'll be able to run a D710a, a 706-MKIIg, or the Yaesu and have it come out clean. The faceplates on all three are just too big to be subtle.
Craig
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Mike Rupp
Member Sponsor
| | 01/12/2010 2:50 PM |
Alert | I don't mind a faceplate mounted where the sunroof switches are on a D1. Now that I don't have any switches there, the job is just that much easier. We'll see. I'm way too fickle to be able to say with certainty what I could accept or not. :)
I've thought about the carputer thing, but honestly I don't want to dedicate that much time into researching and installing one. I know it would be a good all in one solution, but I just don't have the energy considering that I need to basically turn two Land Rovers into the other.
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WZ7V
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Craig Miller
Title Sponsor
| | 01/12/2010 3:31 PM |
Alert | | Understood. I'm sure that whatever you come up with, it will be clean. Who knows, maybe a 1.5 DIN touchscreen headunit w/ offroad/onroad navigation/APRS that perfectly matches your dash will be released by the time you get the parts moved over. :) | |
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Joe Koegler
| | 01/12/2010 5:39 PM |
Alert | Posted By Craig Miller on 01/12/2010 2:18 PM ... You can install a carputer very cleanly, without rattles, and without butchery but it takes a lot of work. There are numerous factory looking installs at mp3car.com...
Here's my version in our sedan. I think it came out pretty clean. 
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Mike Rupp
Member Sponsor
| | 01/13/2010 2:39 PM |
Alert | Well, I did a little checking with Yaesu to see if their dual bander would work with external GPS via NMEA 0183. It only works with the Yaesu GPSs. I've looked through the owner's manual and compared it to the Kenwood D710a and I can't see anything that it offers that the Kenwood doesn't. The nice thing about the Yaesu product launch is that the Kenwood is now only $535.
So at this point I just need to figure out if the benefits of APRS outweigh HF. | |
WZ7V
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Craig Miller
Title Sponsor
| | 01/13/2010 3:24 PM |
Alert | So, Yeasu is selling a GPS with a display on it? Edit: Just looked it up, and the answer is no. So, it does APRS but doesn't give you a way to view other operators locations on a map. That seems odd to me. A true dual bander has other applications than APRS that are also nice. But, if it were me, I'd go HF over the Yeasu radio. APRS w/ no map is kinda lame IMHO. I'd be able to monitor your position visually but you would only know what you saw on-screen. I can't believe they aren't supporting NMEA0183 in/out. | |
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